Friday, July 20, 2007

Apostolic Lutheranism: Introduction

Since getting a site meter and seeing how much of my blog traffic comes from google searches, I’ve decided to write on a subject about which there is not much information on the web. It is also a regional issue (for Battle Ground, Washington and North Clark County) and the subject is religion so it fits well with my blog.

The subject is Laestadianism or Apostolic Lutheranism. North Clark County, in which Battle Ground is the largest city, has a large population of Apostolic Lutherans. They are mostly of Finnish descent. There are some different groups in the movement but the largest group in this area is the Old Apostolic Lutheran Church, a fundamentalist*, restorationist and, I would say, heretical Lutheran movement. They are usually called just “Apostolics” but two other, probably more popular names, are used. These are “bunhead” or “bunner.” The reason for this name is that most of the Old Apostolic women wear their hair in buns. I find the name “bunhead” to be too derogatory sounding but I am good friends with an ex-Apostolic who doesn’t see any problem with the term, at least when used by those who are or have been in an Apostolic Lutheran church. Other attributes of Apostolics are that they tend to have very large families, often of at least ten children and when they greet each other they say, “God’s peace.” Some of the funnier cultural characteristics of Apostolic Lutherans are that they tend to drink a lot of mountain dew, which in Battle Ground is also known as “bunner-beer” and many of the Apostolic young people have been known to wear almost exclusively quiksilver brand clothing. In Battle Ground the Apostolic young people are also known for hanging out in large numbers in the Fred Meyer's parking lot.

Most of the Apostolics I’ve known have been very kind people. I went to the church once with a good Apostolic friend when I was in middle school. All of the ex-Apostolics I know are fervent followers of Jesus Christ who have accepted the fullness of the gifts of the Holy Spirit. There are serious problems with the Old Apostolic Lutheran Church, though, and most of the ex-Apostolics I know would question whether many people in that church are actually even Christians. I trust these ex-Apostolic's judgment. I believe that the revival in Lapland which gave rise to Apostolic Lutheranism was a true act of God but since that time the movement has gone far wrong. This blog post will begin a series on Old Apostolic Lutheranism. My goals in this series are to shed light on a subject that I think many people in Clark County would find interesting but more importantly to reach out to Apostolics who are in a dark place and to let them know that the power of Christ is real and that it brings freedom and joy. My primary resource will be “The History of the Laestadian or Apostolic Lutheran Movement in America” by Uuras Saarnivaara. The book was kindly given to me by an Apostolic man whom I befriended while I worked at Barnes and Noble. I find part the preface of the book to be a good introduction to this series:

…God has led thousands of people to the saving knowledge of Christ through the Laestadian revival. But at the same time the powers of evil have endeavored to destroy this work of God and to break the bond of love between the children of God. Consequently the history of the Laestadian movement is an account of the great saving work of the Holy Spirit in its[sic] conflict with the deluding and disrupting work of the devil. A study of this history therefore brings to us both joy and sorrow.

*I hesitate to use the word "fundamentalist." Its definition is ambiguous and some liberals would probably consider me to be a "fundamentalist." One definition I've heard which I like is that a fundamentalist is any religious person who is more conservative than you are. When I use the word here I am referring to a highly legalistic way of living where the teachings of church eleders are not to be questioned.

37 comments:

Anonymous said...

I totally agree with the Mountain Dew thing. One of my friends is a bunner, and everyday at lunch he gets a bottle of Mountain Dew.
I never understood why he called himself a bunner until now though. I just looked it up on google, and this was the first site I found.
There are quite a few bunners/ex-bunners in my grade at CAM High School, so that's why I looked it up.

exbger said...

My experience with bunners....is that they are such hypocrites. Its unbelieveable how they can smoke, swear, cheat on their spouse,drink, watch movies, screw, beat their wives, get girls pregged, BUT by gollie they better get that bun up right and better nt wear makeup!!! They need to fit in with each other and keep all their big sins a secret. Well I got news for you bunners....everyone knows how evil your youngsters are!!! They run around town sinning to beat the band then they show up in church with a hangover, BUT as long as they got that little scarf on their head well then they should make it to heaven right? Sorry to all you hard core bunners who actually follow your elders sick little rules. Just don't spend too much time alone with one of those unedjeeecated, elders. They might fill your head with garbage, pat you on the bottom and then go have a cig. Their advice, supposedly from God, sure screwed up some lives that I know of....so beware!!! You are better off cutting your genitals off then being a part of this sick cult.

Anonymous said...

The worst part is being out of the church for many years and then having to go to a family reunion. They sit around and stare at you like you are an alien even though years before...they treated you like family. Having stopped going to church at the age of 16 I was isolated from my immediate family and ridiculed at school. I was not allowed to talk to my sisters because the "preachers" told them I was a bad example. It was the worst time in my life and I'm happy I'm now past that point of feeling completely alone. I wish that they would open their eyes and see beyond their little world that they are all in. Its also very sad that people allow their children to get away with very bad manners and no respect for other people or animals. Also the fathers are very emotionally, physically and sexually abusive (I'd say a good 75% of the time) however it is not spoken of and kept secret. The preachers do nothing to help these children and wives and advise that they keep it to themselves and that they will pray for that man to get better. In conclusion, Id say while in the church I lived in constant fear, from my own father and from having to attend the church... which left me with a feeling of absolute loneliness. You dont have anyone to turn to because your parents will not support anything you say or do regardless of your talents, accomplishments or dreams if you do not attend. That should never be how you raise a child and you should never be able to treat a child the way I was and know many other families are. It is completely unacceptable and the very sad thing about it all....is it will keep happening. A word of advice to people that are thinking about leaving the church....from my own experience I learned that eventually things will be easier. However the first year or 2 are very hard. I had reoccuring nightmares that the world was ending and I was unable to get to someone to confess my sins..such as curling my hair or wearing makeup...the sky turning red would scare me beyond belief. I would have slight paniac attacks from being in a room full of people that did not belong to the church. I'd live in constant regret and have shame just for enjoying the normal things life has to offer. Its extremely difficult to deal with the what ifs...and am I doing the right thing...but after years of being away..you discover happiness and feel very emotionally stable..and for me that was the first time :)

Anonymous said...

Wow, the above passage was very powerful. I feel sadness for those who are living in fear of the people who they are supposed to love the most. I am from Battle Ground and have searched extensively to find more research behind their customs and practice but have found only one site that I believe was written by an ex-bunner. I would really like to hear more stories from people who have left the Apostolic church so that the people of Battle Ground and surrounding areas know of some of the horrors and secrets that go on.

Anonymous said...

The apostolic church there are no secrets i can let that be known right now. We dont judge that other people do not go to our church. we hope that you find your way. we raise our children with our own knowledge in our own ways just like anyone else in the world. why say such things. we do not hurt kids or anyone else. we are human. we make mistakes. we are not perfect nor is anyone else. we believe stronly in god and going to church.

Anonymous said...

It's just a little funny that you're the only one who is defending the apostolics, because you are of that denomination. Let's set something straight. I work customer service, and you people are possibly the most rude and animalistic people that I've ever met. If you want to teach your kids anything, start with manors, and then maybe go onto educating them about the risks of cigarettes instead of the difference between which pickup they should get when they're 16. And us "outsiders" are glad to be. You are a cult. You do not own other, therefore do not treat us as so.

Anonymous said...

Its a religion in which people believe in. If you disagree with it, then keep it to yourself honestly, is this a site so you can talk bad about "bunners" because how they believe? Maybe you know a bunner that is rude or don't have manners, but it don't mean every bunner is like that.

Anonymous said...

I am new to the Clark county area and I have to say people youre blowing things way out of proportion. "bunners", are just people, all people are at risk of making mistakes, I hear rumors about this and that but no one ever says anything about the business they bring or complained about the money they spend.. I don't think it's the people anyone doesn't like I think it's the religion, no one would try to make this point about gay or lesbian peoples, yet i know everyone has an opinion about that, myself im Mormon.. I've met a lot of bunners, 99% are nice I think the one percent are just rude as people. I have met more rude people in neighboring towns. I can't speak of those who live with in or have, lived with in, the culture but just as people we all are just people. I have bad days and some say my kids are outspoken, because they were taught to give respect as they get it.

Unknown said...

I am a school bus driver for Battle Ground. And I tend to believe that people are mostly good and have a great respect for religious folks. But my experience with Apostolic children are very negative. They really are incredibly rude. The parents are are clearly to blame as they refuse to acknowledge any ill behavior that their children have. There is definitely something very sinister going on in their church for them to pump out such consistently rude and brainwashed kids. I have been offended countless times but overall I feel sad for them. Once these girls reach a certain age they seem to turn into heartless zombie like people with icy cold stares that seem to be void of any love or joy. Very sad indeed. I came on this site to see if there is any special way to handle these kids, so any advice is appreciated.

Anonymous said...

I can clearly see the person that started this blog and most the people writing in are evil workers, bad mouthing the most generous and kind, loving , honest good hearted Christians there ever was or will be. Some kids are rude of course but they sure we're not brought up that way. They are just kids just like every other kid. The only different between them and you all is they have the old apostolic Lutheran religion and you do not. Anybody is welcome. There is nothing sinister at all about them. They are the most normal down to earth god fearing Christians you will ever meet. They have morals in this dark evil world where most people don't. In the end they are who you will want to be. Don't bad mouth and make up all this garbage that is so very untrue. Welcome here and see for yourself. But you will need to fight the devil because he will fill your mind with doubt and try and deceive you just like the bad mouthers of the real truth that's left in this world.

Anonymous said...

We teach our kids not to do these things but they tend to do so anyway. We are very sorry for what they do. That is not how they should act. Don't think all of us are like that. Most of the teens get over it. We discipline them but not harshly. They all know that what they are doing is wrong. They also all know that tobbacco is very risky. But we all make mistakes, don't we.

Unknown said...

First off I have No religious beliefs, I've read and compared every type or scripture you could imagine some you've never knew about. But they ALL have the same agenda, that is to either scare you, threaten, or brainwash you into following their words as truth or face some terrible fate. The common agenda is power in numbers. That's it. Except for budism who welcomes all religions in harmony. Its a numbers race between the different religions, look around, those groups follow mostly good values but at the same time condem those who don't convert or agree. Some like Islam even talk about cleansing the world free of the infidel influence by slaughtering them like dogs. Since they see any other religion as a joke the word infidel means godless. So by definition you can't be an infidel and belong to a religion. But like I said its power in numbers, just open your eyes to the facts. Yes most preach about doing good and living a good life, and being a good person. But its all at the cost of loyalty to the cause, most men convert for the sole purpose of control. As the family grows it can grow apart and most men fear losing control of their family, so a lot turn to religion as a form of back up. I've had friends who's dads suddenly turn morman or if that's not extreme enough next month they're Muslim. Just so they can have that control over the family.

Anonymous said...

My child has been bullied by bunners for years now. Something has got to change. This kids think it’s okay to treat others like crap. The wildfire....a bunner. The 100 plus cats killed in BG....bunners. The attack and gang mantality in Walmart parking lot.....bunners. When are people going to see that it’s a cult and a problem.

Lady Di said...

Can I just say- WOW! I'm not an Apostolic Lutheran (I'm LDS), but I'm blown away by some of the bigoted comments that have been posted! (Can you say Sweeping generalizations?) Whichever church a person attends, he/she/they attend(s) because they are trying to grow closer to living the example that Christ set- not because they have already achieved perfection... We ALL fall short. We are ALL flawed. And, if you are so inclined, you and I are both invited to share what Jesus Christ has provided. God's Peace...

Anonymous said...

Wow I’m very surprised on how people are treated I have a aposlic family with 14 cousins and when we are all together her is 45 of us I am incredibly hurt by the things I’ve heard these things aren’t true we just are here to fallow god and to live his life I hope all will fims his way but I ask that all be respectful.

Anonymous said...

Thank you for saying something I do have to agree with you on this one. People are generalizing an entire religion of people. That’s all they are. I am not a “bunner” but those are the only people who have really taken me in and brought me up as a good Christian. And I really need people to understand that what they are stating and being terrible about is the minority of the totally population of the church itself. Thank you for seeing the good even though the others don’t seem to. Gods peace.

Anonymous said...

You guys can say all you want but its not true! The old apostolic Lutheran church is the right church!Like someone has already said the kids aren't perfect but nether are any of us! There is so much to say about the Christianity! I love it! seriously! The kids that bully are just immature but they will grow up like all of us! There is so much love at our church! If you don't believe me come and see!Just look past some of the kids that think they are so cool! They will grow out of it! There is so so so much love!

Anonymous said...

The bunners that are defending their family members really don’t see what’s going on do they?! I’m not against your religion at all, I’m just against how you guys raise your kids. They are probably the worst kinds of people in this town. More than 80% of the teenage bunners (mostly the guys)I’ve met are horrendous people. “Christian” my ass! Every Sunday a horde of them rushes in to our restaurant, trashing the whole place, being loud and obnoxious, no “please” or “thank you’s”, chewing tobacco all in our bathroom sinks and urinals, then smoking right outside polluting everyone’s lungs!

Anonymous said...

My caregiver is a bunner. She's very loving and concerning. She's a hoot at times but easily angered at others. I sense a vulnerability in her that I believe is fear of persons outside of her religion. Frugal or thrifty is very dominant aspect of her character. So is driving like a bat out of hell. I suspect some sneakiness which isn't an uncommon process to mankind but leaves me feeling less inclined in believing that the Apostolic Lutherns have the answer to leading a good life.

Jas said...

Sadly, I have nothing good nor bad to say. I live in Battle Ground and have lived all over this country. The kids here are just as stupid and respect less as anywhere else, as most of us all were. I've never been treated badly by any of the kids, nor the adults. Granted, both my children have other things to say, and usually the term "bunner" is used. However, I went to school with hicks, preppies, nerds, mexican gangs, black gangs and all other classes and qliques... children are ALL a-holes, regardless of religion. It's a part of growing up. I have studied religions and many belief systems, and they are all flawed in some way, with maybe the exception of Buddism. They like everyone. So to people who have issues with the "bunners", remember, truly remember, how you were. Not how you tell people you were, think about it privately. You were a punk too, Male or female. That's called growing up. Some people are a-holes their entire life, some grow up and realize everyone deserves some modicum of respect. So, before you judge, before you condemn, remember your adolescence and how you really were.

Anonymous said...

My son lives in Washougal and this past weekend just told me his girlfriend's Dad's side are numbers, I have never heard of this terminology, what he told me, isn't anything I just read, he said, they don't drink caffeine, bit drink decaffeinated coffee, a lot of it, no swearing, and he feel like he's walking on eggshells around them, he doesn't see that side of her family often, but when I was reading the Mountain Dew part, I was puzzled, maybe it's just my son's girlfriend Dad's side that doesn't do the caffeine?? Does anyone know? I'm just a mom looking out for her kiddo, his girlfriend's family are from Battleground, so it has me very curious

Anonymous said...

The Spokane police report states Kara had no contact with her family in Oregon and related years of "abuse and sexual assault" by her parents, Daniel and Susan Massie. She described the family as "a cult" and said her "mother needed to be institutionalized." Have the police in Yacolt been made aware? Did they open an investigation?

Secrets are lies. How long did the Catholic Church hide and transfer pedophiles? I'd like to see the LLC/ALC look into this alongside police. This isn't about being "rude," "making mistakes," or that we're "all sinners." These are serious, numerous accusations of felony sexual assault of minors. Those who have nothing to hide, hide nothing. Learn from the Catholic Church. Welcome the investigation. This poor child of God, Kara, jumped to her death and drowned in rapids. She didn't "pass away" as her family refuses to recognize her pain or their part.

Kara Lynn Massie, 27, died in Spokane, WA on May 22 after a long battle with depression rooted in childhood trauma. She left behind her artwork, a legacy of loving kindness, and many friends and relatives to continue her social justice work.... Kara grew up in Vancouver and studied psychology and computer science at Eastern Wyoming College (where she founded the Gay Straight Alliance), and the University of Wyoming (where she was selected to attend the National Conference for College Women Leaders). She spent her days in service, e.g., helping families in crisis, raising funds for Standing Rock, planning an ecovillage. A gentle rebel, Kara was nonconformist in many ways, from coloring her hair blue to declining labels for her spirituality, politics, and sexuality. Intelligent and curious, she enjoyed reading about quantum physics “just for fun.” Kindness defined Kara. She liked the quotes “love others so radically they wonder why,” and “authenticity before everything.” She dreamt of a more equitable world: one safe for the vulnerable, dispossessed, and marginalized. Shortly before her death, Kara talked of creating a women’s shelter and a Youtube channel for former Laestadians. But depression robbed her of self-worth, focus, and sleep —and eventually, the will to go on. In a final message, she apologized and arranged for the care of Thea and Luna, her beloved cats... If Kara’s journey hits close to home, know that you are worthy of life and love. If you or someone you know is contemplating suicide, call the Suicide Prevention Hotline at 1-800-273-8255 or text 741741. Kara Lynn Massie January 11, 1991 to May 22, 2018 In our lives a short time, in our hearts forever.
_______________

Kara Lynn Massie
January 11, 1991 – May 31, 2018
This obituary is submitted by Kara’s family. The obituary printed last week was submitted by a non-family member.
Kara Lynn Massie, 27, passed away on May 31, 2018 in Spokane, WA. She was born January 11,1991 in Vancouver, WA. She grew up in Yacolt, WA and attended school in Yacolt, Amboy and Battle Ground, WA. Kara had a loving, kind heart and enjoyed caring for the young and the elderly. She was most at peace when she had a baby in her arms. Kara enjoyed painting, sewing and spending time in nature with her animals. Growing up Kara had many close friends and family and will be dearly missed by many.Kara was preceded in death by her sister,Emily Susan Massie.She is survived by her parents, Daniel and Susan Massie of Yacolt, WA, four brothers and one sister; Michael Massie of Davenport, WA, Jennifer Urban of Vancouver, WA, Aaron (Beth) Massie of San Antonio, TX,Eric Massie of Yacolt, WA and Steven Massie of Yacolt, WA, her grandparents, Walt and Louise Reddig of Battle Ground, WA and Mike and Cheryl Massie of Knife River, MN,four nephews, one niece, and a great number of family and friends. Funeral services were held at the Old Apostolic Lutheran Church in Yacolt, WA at

Anonymous said...

I attended Battle Ground High School (graduated in 2018) and I've had bad and good experiences with Apostolics. I was more of a weird kid, am bisexual girl and a little chunky. So alot of them, especially in middle school saw it as an opportunity to bully. It was common knowledge that the kids will stare at you, whisper at you, say straight up rude shit and more if you were different from them. I remember in middle school there was supposedly supposed to be a big fight between Bunners and non-bunners. I dont think it happened but it goes to show how much of a divide there is. At the same time, I know kids are awful no matter the religion, and I honestly got along great with the more nerdy apostolics and made lots of friends with that group. There's definitely a sad divide that takes place in their culture and I feel like it is pretty much a soft cult type religion. I am friends with a bunner girl at my work (shes 20) and she always tells me her friends are using her traumas against her, they spread rumors and drama, and she cant trust anyone from the church because word spreads quickly. I feel so bad for her and many like that because I know they face the decision of leaving the church to have a better life and pursue their dreams just to have their family disown them, or they stay in the religion, get married young, pop out babies, and repeat the cycle because that's what they've been taught. It's pretty messed up.

Anonymous said...

I am a bunner and i wold just like to let you guys know that we do not beleiv that every one from our church are good people and tha we beleive tha everyone is a sinner and there is forgivness for every ou no matter who you are or what sins you have commited and every one is welcome to come and go as they like, and also smoking is one of the thing the preaters worn us about the most and just because some are criminals does not mean we all are.

Anonymous said...

Hmmm.....from my experience you’re describing most Christians, not just Apostolic Lutherans. Do get me wrong....I’m not bashing Christians in general, nor Apostolic Lutherans. What I am bashing is someone blackening the Apostolics for sinning. News flash! Every one sins and falls short. Don’t bash one group. Everyone sins ands everyone has hypocritical to one extent or another.
Thank God for Grace.

Anonymous said...

as a member myself I don't mind sharing an insider perspective. the appostslics are not a monolith. I have since moved from the battle ground area but that culture your describing does exist. and it alienates many people with its toxic mentality.

Anonymous said...

Well said my friend.. It was truly painful trying to read most of these comments and replies but I sure did enjoy you candor wholeheartedly. I hope one day soon that all religions preach the importance of education to their young ones. ** Grammar is important kiddos **

Anonymous said...

My encounter with bunners was civil at first until the boys started sbeaking onto my property stealing parts from my vehicles,4 of which are now damaged and disabled and whats worse? The parents condoned this behaviour! They shot bbs into all my vehicles,damaged my windshield at least 3 times,I had to change brakes/pads 5 times on 3 vehicles all because I caught them shooting bails into my fence and house! They start them young,the mother pops out a kid every 9 months and that tiny evil demon already has been taught to hate non bunners! They hang out at Wal mart and if you step on their toes in any way they're sure to take it out on your car! Theyre evil,a cult but they are stupid! No sense of morals just brought up to be hellions

Anonymous said...

hahaha ppl are funny but bunners are awesome.

Unknown said...

I think the funniest thing about this thread is all of us researching this weird reality in Battle Ground.all of us probably live near each other or neighbors all gathered on the world wide web over Bunners. And only a select few actually understand what we are talking about haha

Anonymous said...

They don't spend money they hang out in the parking lots leaning on people's cars that aren't there's and stinking it up with their cigarette and vape smoke.

Anonymous said...

It's because they don't parent their kids. They have so many kids that they can't take care of them all and the oldest girl children are made to raise the rest. It's why they act that way. It's sad honestly.

Anonymous said...

Most bunners aren’t rude/disruptive/disrespectful. It just seems that way because that 5 percent of them that are loud and obnoxious stick out. You don’t notice respectful/nice/kind hearted bunners because they don’t stick out to you and you don’t assume think they are a bunner.

Anonymous said...

My family is new to the area. We have only one family of neighbors one on each side. We heard from one side that the other neighbor family is "bunners" I didn't know what that meant so I've looked it up and found this blog. But here's my question, I met the husband and wife. They are in their early 20's. They very recently had a baby and have ALOT of family over there since having the baby. I just want to know, is it OK to give Them a gift for their new baby? And is it OK to give it to them when they have all this family over? Also what's a NO NO or are there any for gift ideas? Thank you to anyone who can give advice.

Anonymous said...

Where did u get ur info from bro

Anonymous said...

This is so 100% true not only are the children disrespectful and arrogant. The parents pretty much have taught the younger generation to pray on good pure people and suck them into this cult my daughter has been brainwashed I just attended her wedding last weekend and couldn't believe there was a very controlling atmosphere all women had multiple children so they could never have a independent mind I'm in shock I'm devastated.. this cult has pimped my daughter by dangling money in front of her dangled money by saying they'll pay for the wedding the honeymoon they said they would help them buy a house my daughter has been brainwashed and bribed.. all by a man who claims to be Christian like yet took her virginity and taking her money while he sits and plays video games all day

Anonymous said...

Growing up around Apostolics my whole life and even marrying a member of their church has given me many different feelings on the church and their people. As a young kid gradeschool-middle school got along with pretty much most of the Apostolic kids like anyone else.But when high school comes change of story. Many of the apostolic kids in high school are tyrants. Do not listen or respect teachers. Have a gang mentality of them vs others. And pretty much contribute nothing good to the high school. Even outside of school hours the kids are always getting in trouble in parking lots with cops. Really no respect for others and authority. The age group of 14-20 year olds are somewhat out of control and paint a bad image for the restof the church. However most apostolocs once older are very polite and good people. Inside church very much similar talkings and beliefs of Catholoc and other lutheran churchs. The church puts more emphasis on the teachings of Lestadius than they do of Jesus. Also the preachers refer to pretty much all otger churchs as "Dead faith" does not sit well with me. Good chance the OALC has as many things wrong with it as other churchs do. Most members of the church will live their life 100% according to what the preachers think is right vs wrong.. the same preachers who usyally draw a blank and cant figure out what to talk about every week.the church has the most gossip i have evver seen in a community. I dont look forward to going to family events as they will 90% of time talk about other peoples loves nore than their own. Just be known if your not living your life to what they think u should be that there is people talking about you behind your back. Have seen it in my wifes dirrect family